For 15 years, singer Gibby Haynes has served as the carnival barker for the rock and roll freakshow known as the Butthole Surfers. Over the course of eight(sic) albums, assorted singles and EPs, and legendary live performances, the Butthole Surfers have carved a niche as the world's foremost purveyors of what some listeners have dubbed "sewer rock" (no, that's the Melvins-ed). Together with co-conspirators Paul Leary, King Coffey, and assorted bass players, Gibby has crafted a catalog that wallows in life's entrails to an often hilarious, and sometimes disturbing, effect. (sorry, if anything besides Hootie is too much for you-ed).

After making several records for the Alternative Tentacles and Touch and Go labels, the Butthole Surfers released their Capitol Records debut, Independent Worm Saloon, in 1993. Now the band has scored a bona fide MTV and modern rock hit with "Pepper" from their latest release, Electriclarryland. The album greeted the world in May amid some controversy. Its original title, Oklahoma!, was vetoed by Capitol for fear of lawsuits by the estates of Rogers and Hammerstein. The record company also made an alternate cover available to national retailers who were skittish about the original art, which featured a cartoon of a young man whose ear is dripping blood thanks to the pencil jammed in it. That picture was replaced by a photo of a prairie dog, and the new cover refers to the band as "B***H*** Surfers."

As the band prepared for a recent gig in San Antonio, Gibby and I spoke about the changes to the album's title and cover, Gibby's job last year as an alternative rock DJ in Austin, and Metallica's slot as Lollapalooza headliners.
 
 

ATN: What made you want to call the album Oklahoma! in the first place?

Gibby: Well, I don't know but, speaking of Oklahoma, we were in Europe recently and were listening to this hip hop tune. This guy was rapping, and I don't know what he was rhyming it with, but he goes, "So like a federal building, i collapsed." [Laughs] I thought that was one of the coolest lines that I've heard recently in hip hop.

ATN: When I heard that it was going to be called Oklahoma! that's what I thought it was a reference to.

Gibby: That's probably why Capitol Records wanted us to change it.'

ATN: But then the Rogers and Hammerstein people also wanted to nix it?

Gibby: I think that's a load of shit, man. You know what company put out the big, hit soundtrack to Oklahoma!?

ATN: Uh...yours?

Gibby: Yep. I think they were just afraid about people being sensitive about the Oklahoma thing. And then they made a big deal out of it so they could get a little more publicity. They also changed the album cover art, and they wouldn't put "Butthole" on it. they put BH Surfers or something. The funny thing about that is, a friend of mine saw it. He goes, "Oh, I saw the new artwork. I saw that changed artwork and the abbreviated name. I saw the picture in an ad for Best Buy."

ATN: I saw the same ad.

Gibby: Well the funny thing is, about Best Buy...I know they didn't have to change it for Best Buy because Best Buy used...remember those ads they had where they would list all of those band names? Remember that series of ads? Television ads, where the mom would go, "Wow, what kind of bands are you listening to?" "Oh cool things like so and so, or so and so, or Fugazi, or the Butthole Surfers." They actually used "Butthole Surfers" in one of their television national ads. So, I don't know. Best Buy wasn't really bitching about the name.

ATN: It sounds to me like a case of, if Capitol has said to--

Gibby: If it had been another situation where they just thought they could get a little bit more, a little bit more publicity out of it.

ATN: Or if Capitol has already gone to Wal-Mart, and K Mart, and Target, and whoever, and they're gonna change the cover, Best Buy says, "Well if you have the one that's changed, we'll take the changed one." If Capitol hadn't offered the changed one, maybe they still would've carried the regular one.

Gibby: Yeah, I know they would've, because they've got all of our back catalog.

ATN: Oh, well there you go.

Gibby: [Laughs][Electriclarryland] is the only non-changed one. [Gibby actually means that Larryland is the only changed album cover.] I wonder if they have both, the non-changed and the changed. That'd probably be the most likely thing. You've got a variety.

ATN: How much say does your contract allow the band over things like that?

Gibby: Listen, I think it's great that we're in Wal-Mart and K Mart. I think that's really cool. I don't care what they do to it, man. It's still the music. As far as album covers are concerned, those went out with CDs, when CDs came in. they don't have album covers anymore, they have these little postage stamps that are arranged at these compact disc stores that you go to. There are no more record stores. Unless you're into that European homo music, which I am. That's about the only thing that they have on vinyl, is dance crap nowadays. Singles, I guess. Anyway, the funny thing about changing the album title and the artwork...I just did a little short interview with Spin magazine the other day. And I know that all this thing was orchestrated by the label, but Spin magazine was doing this interview, and they were like, "What do you think about that?" A boy-aren't-you-pissed-off kind of attitude. You know we did a four pageinterview in Spin a couple of years ago, and they wouldn't put the Butthole Surfers on the cover of Spin magazine. It was a four page article in there. They did have Lenny Kravitz on the cover, they had his name on the cover, but they didn't have an article in the magazine about Lenny Kravitz. They had a record review about Lenny Kravitz, and it wasn't even the lead review. I mean, it's not that I don't give a shit about Lenny Kravitz, but if Spin magazine doesn't have the balls to print "Butthole Surfers" on the cover, that's all a big money decision. At least Wal-Mart and K Mart have got this belief behind it. I think that it's a moral thing at K Mart. Obviously the money thing is always the underlying deal.

ATN: The money thing for Capitol, or for Wal-Mart? Or for everybody?

Gibby: Everybody. But at least at Wal-Mart they can hide behind the "Hey, this is a Christian organization." Spin was just full on "Ain't nobody gonna buy if it says 'Butthole' on it in 7-11." I don't know, but I don't care. I don't care about any of that stuff. It's really just the idea that the music is more available, and that's cool.

ATN: And if some kid happens upon your album with the prairie dog on the cover, and they don't know what they're getting...

Gibby: I know. See, that makes it even more beautiful. It actually makes it way more subversive. Like we haven't had any foul language. Most likely, if some kid picks up any one of our records, and takes the hour, or whatever the playing time is...if he spent that same time hanging out with his mother and father, I bet he'd here more "shits,""fucks,""cunts," and "Goddams" hanging out with his mom and his dad than he would listening to our record.

ATN: I want to ask you about "Pepper." If you still had your radio show, is that something you would pick out to play?

Gibby: No. No way. I refuse to play anything by me.

ATN: What if it was not by you, though. What if it was just a song by Band A? Is it the kind of thing you would listen to?

Gibby: That's a really hard thing to say because I know all the songs I've written and performed on. And I generally don't like to listen to them over and over again. I pity the motherfuckin' asshole, dipshit, egotist that can not only talk for an hour about one song he has just, you know, happened to have layed out on the world, man--but anybody that would listen to their music over and over is just...I mean when you're creating it, you kinda got to, to figure out. I personally can't stand any of my fucking music, any of our songs, ever. And that's not because they're not any good. It's just because I did 'em. I mean, I don't know, I just can't see...um...Marcel Duchamp staring at "Nude Descending a Staircase" and thinking it's a great painting. As a matter of fact, the motherfucker stopped painting. That was like the last painting he did. So that's a really difficult thing to say. If you're trying to get me to say, "It's a pop song, it sucks," or your trying to get me to say, "It does suck," or is that not the kind of music you listen to...you know, what kind of music is that? I do think I listen to music like that because I do like Beck, I do like Jim Carroll. I don't like the Nails. I do like Massive Attack, and Tricky, and all that shit. I like that kind of music. And "Pepper" is kind of the closest to that kind of music that the Buttholes are gonna come I think.

ATN: How did you get hooked up with your radio show?

Gibby: You know I called 'em up and said, "I can fuckin' do your morning show." They were looking for a morning person doing rush hour, and I just said I can do that. So I showed up one morning and did it with a friend of mine. And it was fucking great!

ATN: But it wasn't typical morning guy kind of stuff, so they would rather have it at night?

Gibby: I think it was because the station owner was a complete homophobe, and I had an obviously homosexual male as my cohost. I really think that had something to do with it.

ATN: So Capitol is already planning the followup single to "Pepper."

Gibby: I think what they want to do is do a remix of "Cough Syrup" and--get this--put a fuckin' beat behind it. Put a hip hop beat.

ATN: Based on "Pepper?"

Gibby: Based on way beyond that. The fact that four songs in the top ten have hip hop beats. And you know, God bless 'em, they sell records, which is cool. But hip hop, jungle, house, all that crap, techno--it all sounds the same to them. They don't know. [Affects hick accent] "It's a drum machine, man." So I don't know, I would like it to be the best song, the most appropriate song...and I don't know what that is. Whatever's gonna get people to buy the record, that's what I'd like. I know that sounds crass and commercial, but, what the fuck? If we had a commercial success, let's say, I would promise to do a record that's not a commercial success next. [Laughs]

ATN: A commercial success would buy you some leeway, I would think. And you've been making non-commercial records for 15 years. I don't think it's fair for people to be down on you for not making your contribution to the world of things that are less than commercial. I guess someone, if they knew you, may look down on you if they said, "I know you really want to do this, but you did this instead, just to please somebody else."

Gibby: That's really not the case. It's just not the case. I mean, I like pop music. The single to me, it's a pretty non-song song. It's got a narrative and it just bursts into this fuckin' bullshit chorus, then it's got a bunch of weird backwards stuff. It's a pretty non-song song. And people are like, "It sounds like Beck." And you know the song I was really listening to when I did it would've been "Karma Coma" by Massive Attack. I mean, I dug the shit out of that song, and I really liked Tricky's narrative. I really, really liked that.

ATN: Now when Lollapalooza was being planned out, nobody knew that this was going to be such a big singles. But were you asked to go along again?

Gibby: No.

ATN: Would you?

Gibby: Play Lollapalooza?

ATN: Uh huh.

Gibby: I'd like to say no, because I think it really sucks this year. I think it's kind of sucky this year. That Metallica thing is kinda weird. I don't know why anybody would want to change their style of music, especially when you're as big as Metallica. That record would've been number one if it had just grazing cows on it. if they stuck to their...You know, you dance with the ones that brung you. And people say, "Well the Butthole Surfers, man, how can you say that since you've got this top 40 radio hit? You guys have changed your style. It's like a pop song." Well, dude, we had a pop song on our first record. "What's that?" It's a song called "Hey." Any song that has the words "love" and "dove" in it is a motherfuckin' pop song. Whether is was poorly produced or whatever. People are just freaky.

ATN: What would your ideal Lollapalooza be?

Gibby: John Doe in one of his rare movie appearances. I love that when John Doe is in movies.

ATN: Yeah? And they would just show that at the concert? Dr Frank: John Doe?

ATN: Yeah.

Gibby: Oh, no, I'm watching television.

ATN: Oh, OK. I thought that was what you would want to have. Who would have to be on the bill to get you excited about going out?

Gibby: Lollapalooza?

ATN: Uh huh.

Gibby: Let's see. Healine acts? I mean, Metallica, that's not a bad thing. If they were complete full-on metal. If they were doing their metal trip. Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. If they were doing that, that would've been fine. But I don't dig the alternative concept, like the "Let's hop on the dead guy's bandwagon." I don't see that.

ATN: Have you listened to the new album?

Gibby: No, I haven't I heard the single. Somebody told me it just doesn't sound like them at all. Does it?

ATN: I heard a thing about it on Public Radio today, of all places, and I didn't think it was James Hetfield at first. But that's all I've heard, so I haven't given it its chance.

Gibby: Fame and attention must be a huge, gigantic thing when you see that your style is no longer, like the hippest thing. So you wanna change to the new trend. That's really gross. But I can see being trendy if that's what you're about. That works. When being trendy is what you're about, you know, that's cool. Go on to the next trend, brother, right on. But it doesn't work well for Guns N' Roses and Metallica, I don't think. Maybe I'm a fool, but I think the Butthole Surfers can get away with it.

ATN: With changing?

Gibby: We've done everything: industrial noise, art, country...there's very few things that haven't appeared on Butthole Surfers records.

ATN: But there's Butthole sound, that western guitar. When you hear "Jingle of a Dog's Collar," you think, "Oh yeah, that's a Buttholes song. It doesn't sound like this one, but I know it's them." I think you have a distinctive sound.

Gibby: Yeah, we do, but it's hard to pinpoint. It hasn't been stylistically defined. That's probably why.